An Interview with Robert Jungmann, Manastash and Jungmaven founder
An in-depth chat with the hemp clothing pioneer
Hemp is pretty versatile stuff, used to make everything from homes to bio-fuel. Robert Jungmann has been crafting clothes out of it for just shy of thirty years, first with the outdoor clothing company Manastash, and more recently with Jungmavenâhis line of hemp t-shirts, sweatshirts and bed-sheets.
In this interview, he talked us through the ups and downs of his time in the rag trade, from the early days, flogging wallets on a market stall, to becoming big in Japan, and beyond…
You started Manastash in 1993. What was the idea behind it? Not many people were making hemp clothes back then.
I moved to Washingston State from Phoenix, where we had just cacti. Living around trees and mountain landscapesâ I loved it. But weâd go camping in a favorite spot and then go back to the same place the next year, and itâd be clear-cut. That would happen over and over again, for about five years.Â
Later when I was in college, the professor there told us about how rivers play such an important role in the Pacific North-West ecosystem.. He taught our class about watersheds and told us that if we grew industrial hemp we wouldnât have to cut down all these old growth trees, which reduce erosion and keep the rivers healthy. That was my âaha!â moment.Â
About the same time, my parents moved to southern California, by the beach. I had this large wallet, full of nothing I neededâall these photos, these cards I never usedâand I thought, âWhat am I carrying all this for? Iâm at the beachâI just need a little bit of cash.â So I made this little wallet out of backpack material. But then a hemp store opened up here in Seattle, called American Hemp Mercantile, and I put the two together to make a wallet out of hemp. And thatâs when Manastash was born.Â
The more I learned about hemp, it was like, âOh my goshâhereâs a plant that can really take some pressure off the trees.â
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Maybe a stupid question, but how does growing hemp save trees?
Well, anything you can make with a tree, you can pretty much make out of hemp. You can recycle paper, but you canât recycle it over and overâitâs kind of like making a carbon copy of somethingâyou only get so many uses out of it. But if you blend hemp fiber into the pulp, you can extend the life of the paper. My professorâs hemp lesson wasnât directly about textiles, he was just introducing hemp as a fast-growing, sustainable alternative. All the things we use trees for, we can use hemp for insteadâfrom building materials for houses to bioplastics.Â
That makes sense. Beyond the wallet, what else were you making at first?
I made rock-climbing chalk bags and Camelbak type hydration packs, then shorts and jackets. Weâd put hang-tags on them, which were almost like small books, detailing all the things you could do with hemp.. Nobody knew about hemp back in 1994, it was all new information. The Emperor Wears No Clothes by Jack Herer was pretty much all the information that was out there, so weâd share information out of that book.
Almost like street preachers handing out pamphlets?
Yep. It was all about education. In the Manastash days weâd go to the Fremont Street Festival, which was every Sunday. We had a little booth, and it was like thatâwe were on a soapbox preaching hemp. And it was like that for the first five yearsâor actually longer than that, because in 2000 it felt like things kind of went backwards.
Why was that?
Here in the U.S., there were the Bush years, and then we had 9/11. AÂ lot of things took a backseatânobody was interested in hemp. Hemp really needed an image boost, because these hemp stores which had opened up all across the country were also selling bongs and things like that, which wrongly associated hemp with the drug culture. Many of the hemp shops were short-lived and didnât do enough to push industrial hemp into the mainstream.Â
How were you making things back in the early Manastash days?
In the very beginning, I was making things in the attic with my best friendâs mom. Iâm a horrible sewer, so I did all the design, and she did all the sewing. And then I did the dye-work in the washing machine in our basement. I had dated a girl in high school whoâs mom was making Roffe jackets. Do you remember Roffe jackets?
No, what were they?
They were ski coats. So I reached out to her, and she knew someone who could help me out. And thatâs how I got introduced to the Seattle fashion machine. In the 90s, there were still a few clothing factories and dye-houses in Seattle.Â
There was a place called Seattle Wash which did cut-and-sew and garment dying. That helped us in the very beginning because we couldnât hit any minimums, so weâd have to make 500 units of something, but then we could dye it up in a bunch of different colors.Â
“Anything you can make with a tree, you can pretty much make out of hemp.”
This is why, even back in the early days, our stuff looked broken-in and had an assortment of colors. Out of 500 units, weâd maybe split that over ten colors. There was a place that specialized in tie-dye too, so weâd think, âLetâs tie-dye those shorts.â Back then you only saw tie-dye t-shirts, but weâd tie-dye everything. It was kind of fun.
It seemed like there was a lot of stuff going on around Seattle back then. KAVU was started out of there around a similar time too. Where did this burst of stuff come from?
Thatâs a good question. These things come in waves. For the Pacific NorthWest back in the early 90s, everything was happening here. As a DJ, I remember getting the Pearl Jam Mookie Blaylock tape. Just the week before Iâd been listening to Nirvana and Soundgarden, so I was like, âWhat, this is from Seattle too? This is insane.â Iâd joke with Barry at KAVU, saying, âYouâre like Soundgarden and weâre like like The Screaming Trees.â I donât know what was going on, but there was something happening. Maybe it was because there were more resources at our fingertips, and people were looking for something new..Â
With Manastash Iâd think, âI love how these vintage pants fit, and I love how Carhartts are so rugged, so letâs combine the two.â And there were factories who were willing to take the time to do this stuff. It was a great time to be in Seattle. I remember it felt abundant, but at the same time we were living on twenty bucks a day, if that.Â
How did people react to it?
They thought we were selling weed. I remember going to the Outdoor Retailer Show in Reno, and we had people stopping by the booth going, âWhat the heck are you doing? Are you selling weed clothes here?â We actually had the Outdoor Retailer people come by and check us out. We tried to explain that this clothing is good for the environment. We talked them into letting us stay, but it was dodgy. We did end up getting quite a few orders though.
I remember the next summer we went on a hemp tour. We took two Volkswagen buses, and I had an Astro van, and we were on the road, travelling, doing every mountain bike race that we could. Weâd race in them, and weâd get a boothâthis bamboo hut with palm frondsâselling our hempware. The NORBA mountain bike race people loved it, and told us about a rock climbing event. So weâd do that. And then thereâd be a balloon race, and weâd do that. We did everything we could for a month of a half.Â
I remember sending flowers to the Outdoor Retailer Show, saying, âplease, let us in,â and they did. I remember that year the Patagonia crew were outside the booth thinking, âHmm, thereâs something to this.â Theyâd already been thinking about it, but we were there, doing it. A couple of Japanese distributors were interested too, and about six months later, on Christmas Eve we were having a party, and over the fax machine this order from Japan came through. It was a $20,000 order, it was insane. We were so excited. It was our big break.
Why do you think it took off in Japan so much? That seems like a regular occurrence for interesting brands. Whatâs different there?
It seemed like Japan was really open to new things happening in the US. That was my take on it. I donât think it was because of the environmental thing, at the beginning, but our distributors went with that, and it had legs. Patagonia was already big in Japan, and I remember t-shirts over there where people had combined the two brands, âPatastash,â or âManagonia.â That was cool. I think the kicker was that we were trying to make a differenceâit had core value and it was true. We werenât saying, âHey, weâre going to give money to something to make ourselves green, even though we make something really crummy for the earth.âÂ
Yeahâthere was something authentic there. The brand was eventually sold to a Japanese company. What happened there?
Yesâitâs a little bit of a sad story. Iâll make it brief. We had an investor come in, and he sold us on this idea that we should make everything in China, and I bought it. It worked out well for about a year, and then in the third season the product was complete garbage. Japan cancelled their entire order, and it put us into a spiral.Â
The investor said, âIâll take over the debt, Iâve got this,â and he just asked for my voting rightsâbecause I owned 80% of the company at the time. So I sold it to him, and then he fired me, took over the country and sold it. I got squeezed out, and had no control. It was like getting your baby ripped from your armsâit was something Iâd worked on for nearly ten years. Lesson learned, never sell your voting rights.
That story seems quite common with companies that are growing. They seem to reach this point and then these shady characters come out of the woodwork.
Iâve had a lot of friends go down the same path. Itâs unfortunateâit does happen a lot. You get to this point and youâre like, âI need investors.â No you donâtâyou need to slow your role and get better at what youâre doing, and grow at a healthy pace.
What did you do next then?
So I moved to Costa Rica and chilled out for a while. And then I started Jungmavenâtrying to start over and not make the same mistakes. It was hard to let it goâit took me years.
What was the idea with Jungmaven?Â
I moved to Costa Rica in 2001 and the hemp jersey t-shirts that I took with me lasted a long time. Everything else I had fell apart in the jungle. And thatâs one of the reasons I started Jungmavenâhereâs a product that everybody needs.Â
With Manastash I made everything from golf bags to skateboards, but the t-shirt was more universal. Why not just make a really good t-shirt? Thatâd be the easiest way to introduce everybody to a quality hemp product. That was one of the missing links tooâsome of the hemp products were just not made well back then. So we just did a basic t-shirt and a long-sleeveâblack and whiteâit was real simple.Â
Had attitudes changed to hemp by then?
That was in 2005. It was an interesting timeâthere was a lot of competition out there doing different thingsâLivity and Satori were the hot brands for hemp, and iPath shoesâbut there was really nothing in the outdoor retailer world. Then in 2008 the economy just cratered.Â
It took a couple of years, but all of a sudden âMade in the USAâ was interesting again. There were a handful of small stores, like Hickoryâs, who were really focussed on thatâand so we brought Jungmaven to that market.Â
And then Fjallraven picked it up in 2011, and that really helped us out. Fjallraven was a new concept for the US, and we had a giant table in their store, with all these different colours of t-shirts. That really helped us get into a whole new market. And thatâs how we emerged in this fashion / outdoor world.
“Before it was just about consumption, but by 2011 people were thinking, ‘What brings me joy? What has value?'”
There was a definite push for authentic, well-made clothing at that time.Â
All of a sudden, less was more. Before it was just about consumption, but by 2011 people were thinking, âWhat brings me joy? What has value?â That ethos has only continued to grow.Â
We were definitely struggling at points though. We started making black and white t-shirts in 2005, then we started making pants and jackets in 2007, but then in 2009 we went back to those black and white t-shirts.Â
It sounds like a wild ride in the clothing industry. Thereâs just endless highs and lows.
I think itâs super fun. Thatâs what I enjoy the most with itâtrying to see what trends are coming. I always compare it to music, and weâre putting out a new album every six months. Weâre not reinventing the wheel there, but weâre just trying to push the needle a little bit in the right direction.
I should add that back in 2009, when I was struggling, I thought, âI wonder what Manastash looks like now?â So I found them online, and it looked amazing. So I called them up and told them that I loved what they were doing, and then they called me back asking if I wanted to help grow the US market. And thatâs actually how Hickoryâs and Fjallraven found Jungmavenâbecause they came over to my booth looking for Manastash. So Manastash actually helped me out at one of my darkest hoursâit came back as a teenager to save me.
That must have been nice. Do you think as someone whoâs been working with hemp for a few decades now, youâve helped inspire other brands to do the same?
Yeah, and I continue to encourage it. Weâre trying to make something that people want to emulate. If someone else uses hemp, then thatâs one more product on the market thatâs made with an environmentally friendly textile. We did hemp sheets and bedding about four years ago, and now there are so many people doing hemp bedding. And why not? Itâs a great thing to sleep in.Â
Did what happened with Manastash affect how you do things with Jungmaven?
A big lesson I learned, and one that should be told to people who are starting a new company, is that growing smart and staying true to what you believe in, is so important. It really dilutes the integrity of the company once you bring in people who are just in it for the profit.Â
Brands can quickly lose their flavour when they grow too fast.
Yeah, if all of a sudden we start making sunglasses and shoes and hatsâjust putting our label on somethingâthen weâd lose a bit of who we are. I like it when people say, âYou do this really well.â or, âThis person does that really well.â The product quality is diluted when a brand tries to be everything to everyone.Â
Definitely. Slight change of subject, but what do you do outside of all this? How do you shut off from running a clothing company?
My girlfriend has a five and an eight year old, so theyâre keeping me busy. We go camping and I try to go mountain biking as much as possible. And then thereâs yoga and meditationâand I always put time in on a treadmill. I’m still getting under a seven minute mile pacing on a four mile run, and at 52 I feel good if I can keep at that level.
Youâre doing alright then. Is it important to have a balance? People often get burned out if they run their own business.
Yeah absolutely. I met with the gentleman who brought Ikea to the U.S. one day, and had a great talk with him.One of the things he said that has stuck with me was that, âIf you go into the office, try to be 100%âand if you canât, then think about maybe not going in.â If youâre not healthy, then you canât do a good job for your team.Â
For me, being healthy means playing outside, jumping in the water somewhere or going mountain biking. Just being active and getting my heart rate up everyday. It keeps you alive, and it keeps everything youâre doing feeling alive too. If you put too much time into your work, it takes over your life.
Yeah, I suppose whatâs the point in doing all the work if thatâs all youâre doing? Thanks a lot for taking the time to talk to us. Youâve already given us a few words of wisdom here, but do you have anymore wise words to end this with?
Iâd say if thereâs one good piece of advice, itâs to look at consumption. Think, âDo I need this? Is it valuable?â Weâre voting with our purchases, so everything you invest in, you are adding power to and advocating for. So take the time to research what you buy to make sure youâre supporting a product that aligns with your valuesâ and hopefully can make this world a better place in some way.